momoclo's legacy?

iheartmcz

obviously the girls aren't done yet, but i was wondering where they stood in terms of a legacy.

Discussion point: As far as I know momoclo is one of the first idol groups to be somewhat "non idol" like. They have definitely targeted groups not traditionally considered idol fans. Now days their are much more extreme non traditional idols that target more fringe audiences, but do we get to these groups without momoclo.

is their a BIS without an MCZ?

MM305

iheartmcz said:
but do we get to these groups without momoclo.

Before MCZ, the only Japanese female music groups/artsits that I listen/followed to were BABYMETAL, Perfume, and Kyary Pamyu Pamyu, who are 3 great examples of "non idol" like groups/artist who still \have several "idol" factors that can put them underneath that "idol" umbrella.

Heck, even though MCZ are supposed to present an "non-idol" like approach as well, they are still the MOST idol-like group that I have followed compared to those 3 Japanese music stars.

Everything that had first shocked me about MCZ (mentioned in my "contraversial" posts that I made when I first signred up to this forum about the outfits and why a member has the taglined "playfully sexy") was something that I had not seen among those other female Japanese stars that I followed. It's something that follows MOST of the idol rules/definition, and that STILL gives them the license to be constantly refered as as an "idol group" as opposed to a girl group/artist/band that (even though those 2 names fits them as well).

iheartmcz

MM305 said:

iheartmcz said:
but do we get to these groups without momoclo.

Before MCZ, the only Japanese female music groups/artsits that I listen/followed to were BABYMETAL, Perfume, and Kyary Pamyu Pamyu, who are 3 great examples of "non idol" like groups/artist who still \have several "idol" factors that can put them underneath that "idol" umbrella.

Heck, even though MCZ are supposed to present an "non-idol" like approach as well, they are still the MOST idol-like group that I have followed compared to those 3 Japanese music stars.

Everything that had first shocked me about MCZ (mentioned in my "contraversial" posts that I made when I first signred up to this forum about the outfits and why a member has the taglined "playfully sexy") was something that I had not seen among those other female Japanese stars that I followed. It's something that follows MOST of the idol rules/definition, and that STILL gives them the license to be constantly refered as as an "idol group" as opposed to a girl group/artist/band that (even though those 2 names fits them as well).

I don't think anyone would call perfume or kyary idols, but Babymetal is another idol group that momoclo may have been a step towards

stansfield123

"non traditional idol" isn't a legacy, it's a label. Most of the people who've been showing up to make Momoclo the best selling female live act in Japanese music history have no idea that label even exists.

Their legacy is going to be their achievements, music and performances, not the label people who like to label things labeled them with.

To put it another way: how many people who love the Beatles or Zeppelin could even name the labels music critics have up on them over the years? That's just not what the average music lover cares about. They care about the actual music, not the category someone tries to fit it into.

stansfield123

iheartmcz said:
I don't think anyone would call perfume or kyary idols, but Babymetal is another idol group that momoclo may have been a step towards

I literally know nothing about Perfume, but I've heard KPP call HERSELF an idol many times before. Surely, that counts.

iheartmcz

stansfield123 said:
"non traditional idol" isn't a legacy, it's a label. Most of the people who've been showing up to make Momoclo the best selling female live act in Japanese music history have no idea that label even exists.

Their legacy is going to be their achievements, music and performances, not the label people who like to label things labeled them with.

influence is also part of a legacy, but of course the things you mentioned should be part of the discussion too.

MM305

I'm saying that those 3 share "some" factors that the more traditional idols do, meaning that they can fall under that same umbrella!

ebizori

What about BIS, of course Pour can speak how she loves H!P and MM. All idols love H!P projects and all modern idols came out from Morning Musume.
But if you watched BIS documentaries you can hear several times Momoclo's songs plaing in their dressing room. and Watanabe used the same system of initial promotion group that MCZ did. They were on the streets and sang songs of Momocuro if I do not confuse.

So I think that BIS could be without Momoclo but MCZ accelerated the process of the emergence of such groups

iheartmcz

stansfield123 said:
I literally know nothing about Perfume, but I've heard KPP call HERSELF an idol many times before. Surely, that counts.

I have actually seen the opposite at least once, but if you say she has called herself an idol many times, I guess I was wrong.

Mattthecat

As far as I know KPP has distanced herself from being an idol in the past as well on numerous occasions.
And I don't see her as being an idol either

As for BiS, they were in my opinion the main reason for the emergence of the vibrant and open idol scene we have had in the past couple of years
Without them widening the strike zone on numerous occasions many indie idols would never had a chance

Momoclo and Stardust were certainly responsible to get idols out of the male wota stigmatized corner (which was an immense feat) but in an overall sense they are an archetypical idol group

ebizori

They are an archetypical idol group (even Ebichu is more alternative), but they are an archetypical idol group now, in changing idol system. Аnd they helped to change it much. Their steps was beginnig for appearing of BIS, Вabymetal and Bellring, who of course have done more for new age of idol world

delweeve

While I would agree they've helped to push idol music in new directions, you have to remember that groups such as Babymetal (though still a sub-group of Sakura Gakuin at the time) was formed in 2010, while the first real instance of Momoclo dipping their toes into the metal genre was their collaboration with Marty Freidman in 2012. In that sense I would have to agree with stansfield123 regarding groups like the Beatles: Momoclo aren't so much pioneers of music styles, rather they are good at adopting and adapting to the changes in the music industry.

That itself is a great achievement, but again this adaptation and the way Stardust creates different idol groups with their own styles also mimics what H!P had already done a decade earlier. Basically, I wouldn't think there's anything they were particularly "first" at doing, but whatever they chose to do they did well.

ebizori

I don't agree that The Beatles did'nt anything first, they did many stuffs first, especially in the field of sound recording (such as recorded albums, songs from what they have not performed live) Many sound engineers said, how hard they worked with them because the Beatles broke many rules of recording that time. Above all, they were the first to sing so much about politics, the first to create a punk song and art-rock song, and much more. It seems since 1967 there are practically no songs they've composed in which they did'nt something that nobody did before them.

And of course Momoclo were not the first who began to use metal arrangements of the songs, I think we are talking not about stylistic extensions, but about the expansion of freedom that they brought to idol industry

Mattthecat

ebizori said:
Their steps was beginnig for appearing of BIS,

Sorry but I disagree
BiS were formed in 2010 and released "My Ixxx", "nerve" and "primal" in 2011.
If at all they evolved at the same time

ebizori

at the same time, I know, but that does not change my opinion

ebizori

"Watanabe junnosuke : aidoru o kurieito suru" (2016)

I think this book could resolve our dispute in this question ))

I know that kwkm in his book did'nt mention BIS, but I have no doubt that in Watanabe's book MCZ is present

Mattthecat

Would love to read it if I could :)
http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/product/NEOBK-1951303

Let's just say that as always in art and entertainment both groups influenced each other. Lol

iheartmcz

on the over all topic of legacy, what about momoclo live shows? were they innovative or raise the bar for an idol concert? is the live singing as big deal as it's sometimes been promoted? the range of guests is something I have always noticed. Was momoclo the first to do gender only and family shows?

ebizori

my knowledge of the Japanese - zero point fifteen )

MM305

Of course, one of the main examples of MCZ unique style is the bizarreness in their music. Songs like Wani to Shampoo, Momoclo Nippon Bonzai, and We are UFI to name a few presents the silly personalities of these girls. Not to mention, the number of times these songs quickly changes style and rhythm that just boggles the mind and makes you wonder how all these different styles can fit into one song (just like the 2 BABYMETAL songs "iine" and "Tales of the Destinies").

Add to that, one of the other unique things about MCZ is how they pretty much hit a lot of GENRE OF MUSIC that seems to exist, and just constantly makes me wonder "what more can these girl do?"

They've done rap songs (Mokkuro Ni Naru Hatte, 5 the Power, and Doudou Heiwa Sengen), EDM songs (NEO Stargate and BIRTH 0 BIRTH), ballads (Kimi no atto), Metal-like songs (Mungen No Ai), classic rock like songs (Hagene no Ishi), anime songs (Moon Pride and Z no Chikai), and even freaking theater/musical (Hitosubu no Egao de). And there's still other styles of music that we might see from them!

ebizori

yes, progressive pop is one of their distinctive features

MM305 said:

And there's still other styles of music that we might see from them!

Yes. But now time idols have mastered almost all styles of music: from trance to gothic, from psychedelic (noise) rock to dethmetal, from postpunk to post-hardcore, so the surprise is much more complicated

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