I really really reaaaaally wish they would give her a song where she can use her regular pitch. I love her natural speaking voice to death.

There is a part near the end of Maku Ga Agaru when Akemi-chan sings "Happy birthday". That's what does for me

Not neccesarily getting out. Is more a matter of, she will be 20 in a few months, the cute act was ok when she was 14, but she has grown to be this amazing presence onstage. She should try to show other facets of her personality.

All the girl should TBH - Tamai was awesome on Maku Ga Agaru, i want to see more of her acting. Renichan has a great talent for Enka, i think she has been understimated as a performer. Dont need to say anything about Momokachan - playing drums, joining Jado on a wrestling match (even if she didnt actually wrestled), doing duets here and there.

Is just that im biased about Sasaki because Puninofu wa Puninofu

Lurkette said:

Interesting how everyone is so quick to understate Momoclo's current achievements, because they are significant. Even if they can't sell the way AKB does, the reality is that AKB can't perform at the same venues Momoclo does.

Yeah...but I accidentally landed on oricon.co.jp today, and there is was: AKB with a million+ sales on their new single...on the first day. Momoclo's albums, meanwhile, sold 30 something thousand on the first day. And, don't forget, AKB also sell photobooks...which make even more money. MCZ don't do that.

Invader said:

I totally agree, there's no need to bash other idols. Momoclo is doing great doing what they're doing so there's no need to bash other groups.

To me the beauty of idol groups is that you can find some that "clicks" with you specific taste, that doesn't mean it's going to be the same group everyone else likes. You could love a very obscure idol group because they have exactly the kind of music/attitude/performances or whatever that is right for YOU.

I really don't think it's that simple. There is no objective way to explicitly quantify art, sure. But going from that to "there's no good art or bad art, it's all up to what someone likes" is a bit much.

Momoclo's music is better than AKB's. Not for everyone, but for people with a more sophisticated pallet, and an appreciation for complexity in music. Let's put it this way: if you presented the 100 greatest classical musicians with MCZ and AKB's full discography, they would probably run away....but, after you chased them down, and forced them to listen to it all and then pick a favorite, they would all pick MCZ. At least, I'm 100% convinced they would. If even so much as one of them didn't, that would make me doubt my entire view of the world.

It has nothing to do with "talent", by the way. Talent is way over-rated. No one is born 100% talented, ability comes mostly from hard work and good choices. In this case, Momoclo's management team is making a conscious choice to publish better quality music, that appeals to a more sophisticated audience. And they do that because the members of MCZ have proven that they're willing to put in the work required to do justice to the music that is being chosen for them.

I really don't see most other idol groups being willing and able to do that, even if their management made those choices. Being able to work hard is actually a very, very rare quality. And it's very different from willing to show up for 10 hours a day, six days a week...which, I'm sure, most Japanese idols are willing to do. But we shouldn't confuse the two: to actually work hard for those ten hours, you have to unconditionally love and believe in the work you're doing. In Momoclo (especially in Kanako), you can clearly see that drive (and that drive is also the source of her leadership qualities, which is why she's my favorite).

Mattthecat said:

PS: Might I say that in my youth I was a fan of Deep Purple and Led Zep. And we despised the Bay City Rollers with a vengeance!
In the end it's all irrelevant :-)

It's not though. Obviously, loving Zeppelin is more important than hating the Bay City Rollers. But the latter is the consequence of the former. It's impossible to love Zeppelin and not hate the Bay City Rollers.

My point is, hatred isn't a bad thing. We love the good, and hate the bad. You can't have one without the other. Try, try to separate them, it's an illusion. Try, try, an you will only come to this conclusion. The only one you can love unconditionally is Frank.

Here's a better topic for this thread: Who's cooler, Sinatra or Tamai? And don't even bother starting this debate, if you don't think you can keep it going for at least another six pages.

stansfield123 said:

Lurkette said:

Interesting how everyone is so quick to understate Momoclo's current achievements, because they are significant. Even if they can't sell the way AKB does, the reality is that AKB can't perform at the same venues Momoclo does.

Yeah...but I accidentally landed on oricon.co.jp today, and there is was: AKB with a million+ sales on their new single...on the first day. Momoclo's albums, meanwhile, sold 30 something thousand on the first day. And, don't forget, AKB also sell photobooks...which make even more money. MCZ don't do that.

Not to belabor the point, but Momoclo also didn't have 11 different versions of the release, 7 different B-sides, multiple rounds of different kinds of handshake events, and they didn't have to bring in Maeda Atsuko, Oshima Yuko, Itano Tomomi, Shinoda Mariko, and Takahashi Minami (aka the most popular members of the group of all time who have all graduated [sans Takamina but she said that the last single, which broke the million streak, would be her last]).

Of course, AKB would not be nearly as successful without all the hard work they put in to developing a brand identity and creating a culture that encourages a core following that will buy hundreds to thousands of copies per release per person. They have an incredible business model, that is not to their detriment and I'm not criticizing that. But they don't sell that much because the music is that good or because everyone in Japan is buying it; it's because they always have a dozen gimmicks to get their hardcore fans to bulk-buy upwards of a hundred copies. If you look at their SoundScan numbers (back when SoundScan reported, which would have been closer to their peak anyway), they usually topped out with regular editions, the editions without handshake event tickets, at 100k max. That's still taking into account the multiple-purchase incentives of different b-sides per edition and bonuses like random photo cards. You can say Momoclo can't compare because they can't sell that much, but... it's not really a comparison when you take everything into an account. Momoclo promote their music like regular artists, and so they sell like regular artists. Nothing particularly low or anything to be ashamed of.

Oh, and 48G don't even really do photobooks anymore. They mostly just do magazine spreads. Only like 2 or 3 girls get an actual photobook every year. Apparently magazines are far more profitable since the agency doesn't have to put up the money for the spread.

stansfield123 said:

It's not though. Obviously, loving Zeppelin is more important than hating the Bay City Rollers. But the latter is the consequence of the former. It's impossible to love Zeppelin and not hate the Bay City Rollers.

You could update that and say that is impossible to love Metallica and not hate One Direction .

I actually love Zeppelin but i dont exactly hate Bay City Rollers - C'mon, how can you not love Saturday Night?
:))

stansfield123 said:

MM305 said:

Though, there's a difference between "Sorry, but I just can't like this group" and "What? How can you fans love such horrible music acts?!". Obviously, it is impossible and ignorant to think that people are not allow to hate certain music acts if they don't like there stuff, but it's just as, if not more ignorant to repeatedly make insulting comments about those music acts and making their fans feel pathetic for liking them, especially if your reasons for hating on these acts are similar to the reasons you like other music acts!!

Jesus Christ dude. I'm desperately trying to change the subject here. That dead horse has been into a horse hamburger already (ewwwww). What about Frank and Shiori? On the one hand, Shiori is both cool AND alive. On the other hand, there's Strangers in the Night. That might just make up for the whole being dead thing. Tough choice.

Your the one who started it by talking about hating groups to Mattthecat! I brought it up because you brought it up!! But if you already wanted to change the subject.....Do you know when that show with Shiori would be aired? Or was it already aired?

stansfield123 said:

I really don't think it's that simple. There is no objective way to explicitly quantify art, sure. But going from that to "there's no good art or bad art, it's all up to what someone likes" is a bit much.

Momoclo's music is better than AKB's. Not for everyone, but for people with a more sophisticated pallet, and an appreciation for complexity in music. Let's put it this way: if you presented the 100 greatest classical musicians with MCZ and AKB's full discography, they would probably run away....but, after you chased them down, and forced them to listen to it all and then pick a favorite, they would all pick MCZ. At least, I'm 100% convinced they would. If even so much as one of them didn't, that would make me doubt my entire view of the world.

It has nothing to do with "talent", by the way. Talent is way over-rated. No one is born 100% talented, ability comes mostly from hard work and good choices. In this case, Momoclo's management team is making a conscious choice to publish better quality music, that appeals to a more sophisticated audience.

I could see Lang Lang being willing to give the stuff a listen (maybe not the whole discographies at once though lol) :P He'd probably like Momoclo.

I wouldn't say that Momoclo's complexity is necessarily what makes them better than AKB, as more complex music isn't always better. A lot of people would probably consider Mozart to be a better composer than Liszt, or the Beatles to be better songwriters than Yes. The more complex music does make Momoclo more interesting imo, but I wouldn't say that alone automatically makes something better. The thing that makes Momoclo win out over AKB for me is that you get a sense that there was a real effort made to make the songs something good - it feels like the creators put their hearts into them, regardless of how complex or challenging the particular song is. With AKB on the other hand, you can hear that a lot of their stuff was made with the spirit of it being filler; they don't really care to try and make something exceptional because their business model doesn't really require that. That being said, if you haven't before, you should listen to Matsui Sakiko's piano album of AKB songs. The extra efforts given to the arrangements and the added dynamics give those songs a life I never realized they had, and it hit me that AKB probably could make great music if they made more of an effort to do it, but they don't bother.

Invader said:

stansfield123 said:

Invader said:

stansfield123 said:

[

They're among the best artists (only Japanese pop act that might be better is Sheena Ringo)

That's a bold statement if I've ever heard one. Of course everyone can have their own opinion but this sounded too much as fact and I can't agree with it :)) . As much as I might like Momoclo's music, and as much as I love them as entertainers, there are a ton of talented japanese acts that are better (in a more "non-biased" way) than Momoclo. I wouldn't exactly consider Shiina Ringo as just pop, since she mixes rock, jazz and all kinds of experimental stuff, and with the indie boom right now there are sooo many acts doing incredibly interesting stuff like that.

Better or worse is just a matter of taste, but saying Momoclo is the second best japanese act only after Shiina Ringo as this was fact, it's too much for me not to say something against it.

You haven't said anything against it. It's still a fact that, in my estimation, Momoclo shares first place when it comes to J-pop acts, with Sheena Ringo.

You haven't even helped me change my mind, because you haven't named anyone I should look into who's supposedly better.

And yeah, there are plenty of "interesting" indie bands. But Momoclo have been around for eight+ years, and have been great for at least the last four. There aren't any indie bands with that track record in J-pop. I'm not going to place an indie band with one album, or one or two good singles, above Momoclo, who have been making great music (and putting on even greater live performances) for the past four years.

Why would I want to change your mind? If for you Momoclo is only second to Shiina Ringo good for you. As long as you can respect other people thinking they're not on the second place. I like Ebichu way more than I like Momoclo, but I don't go around rooftops shouting it is fact that Ebichu is better, it's not fact, it's opinion.

Probably if you make, for example, Shiina Ringo fans choose between AKB and Momoclo... A bullet to the head might be the outcome too. A lot of people who appreciate Japanese music are not as forgiving of Momoclo's "annoying" style as we are, so I'll let them think whatever they want, there's no need to force people to like Momoclo.

All this "momoclo is so obviously better than AKB" starts to sound like insecurity, like we're trying to convince ourselves. Momoclo is Momoclo and AKB is AKB, each one is selling a different thing. Sometimes I want to listen to Mugen no ai, sometimes I feel like listening UZA, who cares?

Do all AKB, SKE, NMB songs suck? Probably not, I haven't heard all of them but for example I love Escape with passion so I can't say all their music is terrible. Are all momoclo's song good? Hell no, they have some that are just as bad as some AKB songs, but I've listened to all of them so I know which ones are amazing.

By the way we are talking about the two top girl groups (if you don't count perfume), there's life away from the mainstream, there was BiS, now we have BiSH, BiLLiE IDLE, Bellring.... Long live the underground idols!

To keep it on topic since I can sense people are going to start trolling me: Aarin's voice got better, but they still make her force the overly cute thing. I don't think I want her to change it because she's older now, not when dempagumi exists, but I kinda want her to change it a bit because I know she can. Link Link was the song that made me appreciate her.

What do you mean about Momoclo's "annoying" style in your second paragraph?